My concerns about the plugin community.

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The26
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My concerns about the plugin community.

#1

Post by The26 »

Get ready for yet another meaningless text complaining about none other than our beloved plugin store and plugin community...
Please note that I will avoid mentioning certain names in a bad light, as one post I saw proved to me how flammable some people can be. Also, when I mention a group of people, I don't mean everyone, just a few certain individuals.

1. "Generations"
So, I think the first thing is quite clear when I mention it. It's inevitable, and will pretty much happen in any community. It's how our current "generation" of plugin creators are dying - lots of experienced and old plugin creators (such as RockFort, Yusuf, I'd even add Vonark to this list) are leaving the community and newbies replacing them (whose names I shall not mention). I'm mostly worried about this issue, seeing how most of the plugins by new people are typically of low quality. What if all the talented people leave and now we're left with only poor quality plugins? I mean, we do have documentation but when's the last time you've seen those tutorials, specifically regarding graphics, actually get used by the newbies? This happens to be the base of pretty much any problem, as you read further along.

2. The "new" creators
About them... oh my God...
Okay, some of them aren't that bad. Actually, I'm happy about some members who actually managed to improve their plugins, like Naufhal. I remember when he used to plugins that I could only describe as horrid, but now he seems to make acceptable quality plugins. That's progress! I can see a bright future for him. As for (most) of the other creators... I won't mention their names but I can only describe their plugins just like I could describe Naufhal's first plugins - horrid. It's always nice to see when people take criticism, and actually learn, and some people have done that. For others, they usually ignore it completely or just straight up reject it, start crying about it, etc...
That's one of the problems - people don't know how to take criticism. I know this issue (and the first point) can't really be solved, but at least I can point it out. Their refusal to improve is one of the reasons why the good creators leave.

Now for issues which also impact me...

3. Quantity over quality
I'd say it's quite rare to see plugins which have more than 5 buildings in them. For stuff like hospitals or police stations I'd say I understand that. RCI skyscrapers too. However, I don't understand it when people make a vehicle, one RCI building, etc. and put each one in separate plugins. You might know that a typical RCI plugin of mine has a few unique homes and height variations of the said homes. Yet it feels like I put in way more effort into those plugins than pretty much any other RCI plugin developer. I think it's quite obvious that some people are doing it for the diamonds, which I do somewhat understand, but it worries me that when the "new" generation comes along most of the creators will just make plugins for the diamonds...
I am currently trying to adapt to this issue by releasing smaller packs, which I think will be evident later on once I release them.

4. Forums and my bad experience with them
You might have heard this story from me before, but I shall repeat it again. I have previously released my Rowan Trees plugin on the forums. That wasn't the first time I uploaded my plugins from the plugin store to the forums. I also had uploaded my residential building pack with 60 buildings in it, since one person kindly asked for it. After uploading my tree plugin to the forums, some time later I saw a plugin with those trees in it. At least they could have credited me and I would have been okay with it, but no, the creator just took full credit for the plugin. You know what the best part was? Those trees weren't even imported properly, the plugin had a low quality upscaled version of my plugin. I had asked the creator to at least credit me, nothing. Reported, nothing. Only contacting the administrator seemed to work, but not the first time. I still had no response, and after a few days I asked JustAnyone and he told me that apparently there was "no such plugin". Fortunately, the plugin got removed later on. After all that happening I started thinking that the forums were now an unsafe place to upload plugins. What if I uploaded another plugin and then someone went ahead and without my permission or credit, uploaded it to the store? I am going to discuss moderation a bit later on, but that's another big drama.

5. High standards of people
One thing I hate seeing is the high standards of people. Wouldn't you hate it if you made a very big building pack and then someone demanded night frames for it? Not asked, but demanded. Oh wait, that has happened to me! I absolutely hate the fact that people don't know how hard it is to make a plugin. They think it's easy and plugin makers are just robots printing out those plugins with no lives of their own. Oh, you think the plugin is ugly? Well then, try making it yourself and see how you'll do. Where are the night frames? Well sorry, but I'm not adding them. You should understand that I'm not a robot and I have a life of my own, I simply don't have time to add them and it's very tedious work. Add night frames? What?? The night frames are already in the plugin what do you mean-

6. Moderation
This issue doesn't affect me as much, but I absolutely hate seeing bright happy futuristic big plugin skyscraper #8430591817259639105. The incompetence of plugin store moderators really annoys me. Fortunately, there's a new moderator, which seems to do a significantly better job than previous moderators. You can definitely make a compilation of bad plugins that were accepted, slap on Can Can or In The Hall Of The Mountain King and then post it on YouTube for free views. All jokes aside, I still feel like we need more plugin moderators as just a small amount of moderators won't deal with stuff fast enough. Although, I have seen with what quality plugins they have to deal. I kind of feel bad for them.

Conclusion
Have I forgotten some points I wanted to mention? Probably. However, I don't care. I just wanted to voice out my concerns about the community. I feel like constantly complaining about this might not be meaningful, but I also feel like if we complain enough we might see change. It's a complex problem which requires a complex solution and it's not easy to come up with one that fast. If you have your own opinions you'd like to share, feel free to do so.
Edit: fixed one mistake
Last edited by The26 on 27 Jul 2022, 13:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#2

Post by Stepanhie »

Screenshot_20220723_135802.jpg
The26 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 07:02 Original post.
well if vonark doesn't get banned by this server you might still be able to see some good plugins from it
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#3

Post by DualHD »

The26 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 07:02 Original post.
I agree, especially the moderation, people demanded night animation, and most importantly QUANTITY OVER QUALITY. I hate when the plugin store is full of low quality plugins, yes ik the people who made those are newbies they'll eventually improve. But some no they don't improve at all and don't take criticism. (I'm looking at you Designer Anthony)

TheoTown community is slowly going downhill. Sad
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#4

Post by TheLeaf2805 »

I agree. And more of the "quantity over quality" concern, it's ironic that some quality plugins aren't as popular as others. And the fact that some people (that I won't mention directly here) are taking the "downloads" as their goal, but not the quality. It's funny to see them brag about their "downloads" even though their plugins are not that quality, and just a bunch of repeating copy-paste processes. And for the "generations" concern, I think it's just a matter of time until we have many quality plugins from the next generation. They are still learning and trying to improve their plugins(i hope). They are just like us before. It took me about 2-3 years to master my skills. So I think that they(the next-gen) is also like that.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#5

Post by The26 »

TheLeaf2805 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 10:52 I agree. And more of the "quantity over quality" concern, it's ironic that some quality plugins aren't as popular as others. And the fact that some people (that I won't mention directly here) are taking the "downloads" as their goal, but not the quality. It's funny to see them brag about their "downloads" even though their plugins are not that quality, and just a bunch of repeating copy-paste processes. And for the "generations" concern, I think it's just a matter of time until we have many quality plugins from the next generation. They are still learning and trying to improve their plugins(i hope). They are just like us before. It took me about 2-3 years to master my skills. So I think that they(the next-gen) is also like that.
Your "(i hope)" is what mainly concerns me. The issue is that the newbies don't really seem to accept criticism, they keep making plugins that look like they're just for the diamonds.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#6

Post by The26 »

Akunbaru123 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 09:00 Screenshot_20220723_135802.jpg
The26 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 07:02 <original post>
well if vonark doesn't get banned by this server you might still be able to see some good plugins from it
Nice! I think that he's a talented person, however I don't like his political opinion and from the evidence I was given, his personality. I still miss him though.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#7

Post by Stepanhie »

The26 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 11:34
Akunbaru123 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 09:00 Screenshot_20220723_135802.jpg
The26 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 07:02 <original post>
well if vonark doesn't get banned by this server you might still be able to see some good plugins from it
Nice! I think that he's a talented person, however I don't like his political opinion and from the evidence I was given, his personality. I still miss him though.
I don't know anything about his opinion, obviously I just hope he can return to the Theotown community again without any problems.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#8

Post by DelTaco24 »

Totally agree with everything the original post said, the current state of the Theotown community is just AWFUL. It is infested with immature and ignorant kids who want everything their way and their way only, and whine if they don’t get it. However the problem is less the kids themselves and more so the moderators who enable these naughty children. From over 2 years of browsing this forum I’ve noticed that the moderators (especially one in particular) will always side with the kid no matter what, right or wrong, moderator has their back. They will approve their mediocre plugins that don’t even meet the basic plugin store rules, defend them when they started a fight and got upset by what another person said, etc etc. There are many examples of this, of a moderator siding with a kid just so they won’t have their fragile feelings hurt, and that has been detrimental to the rest of the community. People are tired of how these kids are allowed to rule the forum and plugin store. People are tired of there being a constant stream of crap plugins, especially those who put hours of work into their own plugins only for people to leave nasty comments over them not adding night animation, and that just makes them think, “what’s even the point?”, if nobody’s gonna appreciate their hard work. This is why they stop publishing their plugins, only lowering the level of quality even further. The only way for things to improve is for the moderators to change their ways, not side with the thin-skinned children who can’t handle the slightest bit of criticism and favor quality over quantity in terms of plugins. Stop approving plugins just to ‘protect’ people’s feelings and go by the actual quality of the plugin. Also the monetization does not help as it encourages people to make crappy plugins just with the goal of earning gems. Flag and plane plugins are literally the plugin store’s equivalent of reaction and countdown videos on Youtube, they’re designed to abuse the system and have the least amount of effort put into them as possible while making the most profit as possible. This is why I think it would be better if there was no monetization at all, with the motive of earning gems out of the picture it may reduce the amount of crappy low effort plugins being submitted. However the main problem is that the moderators just don’t seem to care, they like it this way and that’s that, they’ll continue to be accepting of low quality plugins and juvenile behavior. They don’t want to listen to anyone with an apposing viewpoint. They will just completely ignore threads like this that are criticizing their way of moderation. If they keep on going like this, then nothing ever will change (for the better at least), and the Theotown community will just keep on rotting. Sucks to see yet another game I enjoy being ruined by kids and poor leadership.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#9

Post by The26 »

DelTaco24 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 11:56 Totally agree with everything the original post said, the current state of the Theotown community is just AWFUL. It is infested with immature and ignorant kids who want everything their way and their way only, and whine if they don’t get it. However the problem is less the kids themselves and more so the moderators who enable these naughty children. From over 2 years of browsing this forum I’ve noticed that the moderators (especially one in particular) will always side with the kid no matter what, right or wrong, moderator has their back. They will approve their mediocre plugins that don’t even meet the basic plugin store rules, defend them when they started a fight and got upset by what another person said, etc etc. There are many examples of this, of a moderator siding with a kid just so they won’t have their fragile feelings hurt, and that has been detrimental to the rest of the community. People are tired of how these kids are allowed to rule the forum and plugin store. People are tired of there being a constant stream of crap plugins, especially those who put hours of work into their own plugins only for people to leave nasty comments over them not adding night animation, and that just makes them think, “what’s even the point?”, if nobody’s gonna appreciate their hard work. This is why they stop publishing their plugins, only lowering the level of quality even further. The only way for things to improve is for the moderators to change their ways, not side with the thin-skinned children who can’t handle the slightest bit of criticism and favor quality over quantity in terms of plugins. Stop approving plugins just to ‘protect’ people’s feelings and go by the actual quality of the plugin. Also the monetization does not help as it encourages people to make crappy plugins just with the goal of earning gems. Flag and plane plugins are literally the plugin store’s equivalent of reaction and countdown videos on Youtube, they’re designed to abuse the system and have the least amount of effort put into them as possible while making the most profit as possible. This is why I think it would be better if there was no monetization at all, with the motive of earning gems out of the picture it may reduce the amount of crappy low effort plugins being submitted. However the main problem is that the moderators just don’t seem to care, they like it this way and that’s that, they’ll continue to be accepting of low quality plugins and juvenile behavior. They don’t want to listen to anyone with an apposing viewpoint. They will just completely ignore threads like this that are criticizing their way of moderation. If they keep on going like this, then nothing ever will change (for the better at least), and the Theotown community will just keep on rotting. Sucks to see yet another game I enjoy being ruined by kids and poor leadership.
That gives me an idea, what if plugins would have to go through a second approval process just for monetization? Although the issue is that it would require heavier and tighter moderation and seeing how most of them (and especially one in particular...) are very lenient with kids I doubt it would work out well. I'd say we just need more strict moderators and more of them in general. Perhaps moderator training could be a good thing to perform from time to time.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#10

Post by Kulche »

The26 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 12:57
DelTaco24 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 11:56 Large quote.
That gives me an idea, what if plugins would have to go through a second approval process just for monetization? Although the issue is that it would require heavier and tighter moderation and seeing how most of them (and especially one in particular...) are very lenient with kids I doubt it would work out well. I'd say we just need more strict moderators and more of them in general. Perhaps moderator training could be a good thing to perform from time to time.
I dislike the whole monetization concept but I'm sure removing it anytime soon would cause an enormous shitstorm (just like removing any other feature). I just wish there was an easier way around that.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#11

Post by DelTaco24 »

I’m just not a fan of the whole freemium with in-app purchases model at the vast majority of mobile games follow nowadays. I personally think it would be better in the long run in plugin store monetization and diamonds as a whole were removed and the mobile versions of the game be paid/premium like on PC. First of all it might help keep naughty kids out as they’re obviously not willing to pay for a full game and instead would rather rack up hundreds of dollars in microtransactions. Also like I said they would have much less of a motive to make plugins if earning gems was out of the question. It would allow for a more serious community as the app being paid would be enough to stop most kids from entering, or at least that’s how I feel. Because Simcity4 and Cities Skylines have much more serious and mature communities than Theotown, and that’s probably because they are paid (and also on PC only), making them less accessible to kids. However unfortunately since the devs favor quantity the game being paid on mobile will probably never be realized, as once upon a time it was paid on IOS, and I was lucky enough to have bought it in time. Then they eventually switched over to freemium because it “wasn’t getting enough downloads”. Sigh, killing the community for profit.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#12

Post by The26 »

DelTaco24 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 13:47 Long quote.
I like the fact that when creators share their plugin downloads, they always have thousands upon thousands of uncollected diamonds, proving yet again that monetization is pretty much useless. One thing I really wish was possible was to make plugins free on the store. Either way, wasn't the whole point of the plugin store to simplify plugin downloading? It's much more simpler to just press a button and restart the game rather than downloading some files and moving them to the game's directory.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#13

Post by DelTaco24 »

The26 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 14:09
DelTaco24 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 13:47 Long quote.
I like the fact that when creators share their plugin downloads, they always have thousands upon thousands of uncollected diamonds, proving yet again that monetization is pretty much useless. One thing I really wish was possible was to make plugins free on the store. Either way, wasn't the whole point of the plugin store to simplify plugin downloading? It's much more simpler to just press a button and restart the game rather than downloading some files and moving them to the game's directory.
That’s all the plugin store should’ve been from the beginning, for convenience and easier accessibility. One of the requirements from the get go to get a plugin approved should’ve been for it to have an existing download on the forums as it was still normal to upload on the showcase back then. Monetization just begs to be abused.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#14

Post by Player_no_Zero »

Ello. Still i won't read
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#15

Post by Q_man_02 »

due to all of this i no feeling to continue any of my projects like Flag set 4.0 or Rome road which was an collaboration with Kekman. maybe someday I'll return and post high quality plug-ins
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#16

Post by PenangLion1016 »

This issue has gotten worse, I guess...but without the voices from the earliest of OGs here I'll make my point clear for that...

When I was apart of this sentiment against the leniency of plugin approvals, along with the first or second gen plugin creators (e.g. Kekman, I, Monte, Rockfort, etc.), that was when the markets started to kick in. To give a date, that was 2019/20, when I only had 40 thousand downloads, at most. I have around 930k now, this gives a context on how old this issue is.

Sergio was on his maximum run of over 20 plugins a month. He was one of the first major creators to possess true annoyance to us, not just because his plugins were below average in terms of quality, but that he glanced the descriptions part of the page and made it incredibly casual. Of course when comparing the creators today, Sergio's quality is like of those from Michelangelo.

Always remember, Theotown is a game of kids. You can't deny it. Kids have unnatural requests when it comes to nice things. They want it to be as nice as possible and we cannot fulfill it. Remember in 2018 when a plugin with no night lights and rotational graphics can bring applause while today you need everything and they might not even budge at it?

Since I am not apart of this community for a long time now, who has been approving plugins? Back then it was Kulche (perhaps?), and he was a competent plugin creator. If it were him these plugins would've had not existed on the markets.

Hell I can laugh off with my 278 thousand diamond stockpiles seeing spammers trying to get a few thousand by making absolutely atrocious plugins.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#17

Post by KINGTUT10101 »

I don't know why we even have a reporting system. You can't write custom messages, so all the reports are generic. Plus, kids spam plug-ins with these reports, so the moderators end up ignoring them anyway. They should just remove the whole system honestly... Maybe it would be better if you had to fill out a form to report a plugin. Maybe manually filling out the form would encourage truthful reports.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#18

Post by KINGTUT10101 »

It's also sad to see the old generation of creators leave. There are hardly any that are active anymore, and many of them have deleted their accounts or never logged in again. I can't think of anyone from the very early days that are still making plug-ins today. I think plug-ins were at their peak shortly before the store was introduced. That's when some of the most innovative and influential plug-ins we're made. I hate to say it, but the store has certainly had an effect on how new plug-ins are made. It even caused a small drama where a user made a plug-in with intentional bugs to sabotage store users (seemingly because one of their plug-ins with disapproved or something).
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#19

Post by KINGTUT10101 »

I've never had any major issues with the store mods, but based on their actions I agree that they are not doing a great job. The developers really need to reorganize the store's mod team and give them strict and clear guidelines to adhere to. Currently, they are very inconsistent at enforcing the guidelines and they are contributing to the other issues you mentioned.
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#20

Post by DelTaco24 »

PenangLion1016 wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 17:23 (Long quote)
What most people don’t realize about Sergio is that he steals loads of assets from other games (mainly Openttd). Here’s a few examples with the original sources he probably got them from.
0C5512F9-1B8D-4C33-BC1B-C17DD303242D.jpeg
https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php ... a#p1230172
028BABB3-7AD7-4ACA-9E94-7A68579CD424.jpeg
https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php ... &start=100
542A52B9-0509-444B-87D3-C3CF8482C708.jpeg
https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php ... n#p1233698
A7C3B2DE-43ED-4D67-87A8-F49D6D9255F8.jpeg
https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php ... &start=520
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