My concerns about the plugin community.

[Stepanhie]

Screenshot_20220723_135802.jpg

Original post.

well if vonark doesn't get banned by this server you might still be able to see some good plugins from it

Hello akunbaru! I was wondering what vönark actually did? I asked a person on the discord, but I was a bit afraid of wasting his time.

Just ask the witnesses of the incident such as elder, latvia or the26, I don't know anything it happened suddenly

[The26]

Screenshot_20220723_135802.jpg

well if vonark doesn't get banned by this server you might still be able to see some good plugins from it

Hello akunbaru! I was wondering what vönark actually did? I asked a person on the discord, but I was a bit afraid of wasting his time.

Just ask the witnesses of the incident such as elder, latvia or the26, I don't know anything it happened suddenly

check #announcements in discord, remains said that you can ask him questions about the incident

[The26]

Before the Plugin Store, people actually tried to make quality plugins. The motive was simply to make stuff that people enjoy, not profit. Then, the Plugin Store got released. The motive shifted from making what people would like to make profit, because of one simple thing - plugin monetization. Fortunately, some people understand that diamonds aren't everything, and when asked, they shifted from releasing stuff one by one to making packs. If you're going to release your plugins one by one, at least you could make them free, but alas, making plugins free in the plugin store just isn't possible. I do understand that somewhat though, developers need money after all. If a plugin is free, there's no ad to be watched and no money to be earned.
Okay, the last two sentences were half-sarcastic, but I think you get the point. The current motive for most creators, especially the new generation, is diamonds. They want to be "rich", have bragging rights, "oh, look at me! I have a lot of diamonds! Cha-ching!", that's what most of the new creators want. I feel like the original point of the store was just to make plugins more accessible, and the monetization was just an afterthought. Accessibility is the thing we needed, but the monetization just feels like a roadblock for that...

[FVI]

Maybe you didn't think that if theotown became paid, it would split downloads. And then I don't understand why you want theotown to become an exclusive game. Ps Stop complaining about low-quality plugins (as you call them) the new generation of plugins is just beginning. You will see that they will improve.
I practically agree with Lukasbeenhere

Paid games attract a much better audience.
And I can't say that the new generation is off to a good start, previous generations have raised the bar up high and with a motive just to earn more diamonds, which happens to be what most creators of the new generation only care about, it's going to be very hard to do that. Not to mention the fact that quite a lot of the new plugin creators just don't improve. I don't know how many times I saw edited versions of the sample house, bright blue skyscrapers...
I'm worried about the future, the new creators only think about the diamonds, not the users. They don't improve. The big issue is that the moderators allow them to do it for the diamonds.

“Paid games attract a much better audience.” Yeah that pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.

Also, the message I’m getting from Fvi going by this post and one of his previous ones is that he thinks that there should be no quality rules for the plugin store at all and anything that gets submitted should just automatically be approved? He can correct me if I’m wrong about what he’s saying, but that’s the message I’ve gotten.

@DelTaco24?That was not what I meant. In the previous message I wrote that they should not be too strict and go looking for the hair in the egg in each of my plugins, but it is already better. I really had to struggle to publish my first plugin. And after all the work I've done (even if it doesn't seem like it) I would have been sorry to throw everything away. Of course maybe the first plugins are not so attractive, but you will see that your problem with "low quality plugins" will settle.
viewtopic.php?f=49&p=190792#p190792 If someone is willing to help me (and to have one less low quality plugin in the store) If someone helps me I would be very grateful. Thank you.

[The26]

Paid games attract a much better audience.
And I can't say that the new generation is off to a good start, previous generations have raised the bar up high and with a motive just to earn more diamonds, which happens to be what most creators of the new generation only care about, it's going to be very hard to do that. Not to mention the fact that quite a lot of the new plugin creators just don't improve. I don't know how many times I saw edited versions of the sample house, bright blue skyscrapers...
I'm worried about the future, the new creators only think about the diamonds, not the users. They don't improve. The big issue is that the moderators allow them to do it for the diamonds.

“Paid games attract a much better audience.” Yeah that pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.

Also, the message I’m getting from Fvi going by this post and one of his previous ones is that he thinks that there should be no quality rules for the plugin store at all and anything that gets submitted should just automatically be approved? He can correct me if I’m wrong about what he’s saying, but that’s the message I’ve gotten.

@DelTaco24?That was not what I meant. In the previous message I wrote that they should not be too strict and go looking for the hair in the egg in each of my plugins, but it is already better. Of course maybe the first plugins are not so attractive, but you will see that your problem with "low quality plugins" will settle. PS why don't you try to make a plugin too?
viewtopic.php?f=49&p=190792#p190792 If someone is willing to help me (and to have one less low quality plugin in the store) If someone helps me I would be very grateful. Thank you.

One of the issues I mentioned was the fact that people don't look into tutorials that are more into the graphics side. How about you go check some tutorials on the forums? I'm fairly certain there are plenty of them.
PS: Sorry if this message sounds rude to you, I just can't be bothered to write a nice sounding message at 11 PM haha

[FVI]

“Paid games attract a much better audience.” Yeah that pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.

Also, the message I’m getting from Fvi going by this post and one of his previous ones is that he thinks that there should be no quality rules for the plugin store at all and anything that gets submitted should just automatically be approved? He can correct me if I’m wrong about what he’s saying, but that’s the message I’ve gotten.

@DelTaco24?That was not what I meant. In the previous message I wrote that they should not be too strict and go looking for the hair in the egg in each of my plugins, but it is already better. Of course maybe the first plugins are not so attractive, but you will see that your problem with "low quality plugins" will settle. PS why don't you try to make a plugin too?
viewtopic.php?f=49&p=190792#p190792 If someone is willing to help me (and to have one less low quality plugin in the store) If someone helps me I would be very grateful. Thank you.

One of the issues I mentioned was the fact that people don't look into tutorials that are more into the graphics side. How about you go check some tutorials on the forums? I'm fairly certain there are plenty of them.
PS: Sorry if this message sounds rude to you, I just can't be bothered to write a nice sounding message at 11 PM haha

And that I'm not good at creating shadows.

[The26]

Paid games attract a much better audience.
And I can't say that the new generation is off to a good start, previous generations have raised the bar up high and with a motive just to earn more diamonds, which happens to be what most creators of the new generation only care about, it's going to be very hard to do that. Not to mention the fact that quite a lot of the new plugin creators just don't improve. I don't know how many times I saw edited versions of the sample house, bright blue skyscrapers...
I'm worried about the future, the new creators only think about the diamonds, not the users. They don't improve. The big issue is that the moderators allow them to do it for the diamonds.

“Paid games attract a much better audience.” Yeah that pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.

Also, the message I’m getting from Fvi going by this post and one of his previous ones is that he thinks that there should be no quality rules for the plugin store at all and anything that gets submitted should just automatically be approved? He can correct me if I’m wrong about what he’s saying, but that’s the message I’ve gotten.

@DelTaco24?That was not what I meant. In the previous message I wrote that they should not be too strict and go looking for the hair in the egg in each of my plugins, but it is already better. Of course maybe the first plugins are not so attractive, but you will see that your problem with "low quality plugins" will settle. PS why don't you try to make a plugin too?
viewtopic.php?f=49&p=190792#p190792 If someone is willing to help me (and to have one less low quality plugin in the store) If someone helps me I would be very grateful. Thank you.

Also, I feel like the moderation in the plugin store is way too loose and it should be more strict. Actually, come to think of it, not many new creators seek advice on how to improve their plugins, they don't show their development. Criticism is what makes people improve. There hasn't been a single successful plugin creator I saw that wouldn't post their plugins that are being made, whether it's on Discord or here in the forums.
come to think of it this kind of contrasts my previous message haha
Well, at least you're aware that your plugin isn't too good. I'd add some more depth and better shading (make the wall on the right side darker, it's hard to differentiate the sides).

[DelTaco24]

Paid games attract a much better audience.
And I can't say that the new generation is off to a good start, previous generations have raised the bar up high and with a motive just to earn more diamonds, which happens to be what most creators of the new generation only care about, it's going to be very hard to do that. Not to mention the fact that quite a lot of the new plugin creators just don't improve. I don't know how many times I saw edited versions of the sample house, bright blue skyscrapers...
I'm worried about the future, the new creators only think about the diamonds, not the users. They don't improve. The big issue is that the moderators allow them to do it for the diamonds.

“Paid games attract a much better audience.” Yeah that pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.

Also, the message I’m getting from Fvi going by this post and one of his previous ones is that he thinks that there should be no quality rules for the plugin store at all and anything that gets submitted should just automatically be approved? He can correct me if I’m wrong about what he’s saying, but that’s the message I’ve gotten.

@DelTaco24?That was not what I meant. In the previous message I wrote that they should not be too strict and go looking for the hair in the egg in each of my plugins, but it is already better. Of course maybe the first plugins are not so attractive, but you will see that your problem with "low quality plugins" will settle. PS why don't you try to make a plugin too?
viewtopic.php?f=49&p=190792#p190792 If someone is willing to help me (and to have one less low quality plugin in the store) If someone helps me I would be very grateful. Thank you.

You could try uploading your plugins in the forum showcase if they don’t get approved on the store.

[MrPeanutsArchitect]

I completely agree with everything that is said here, but the number one problem with the plug in problem is plug in moderators being too lenient with kids that are uploading their mostly low quality plug ins

[AjaxSuperCleanser]

I will indeed agree sir.

[PenangLion1016]

This issue has gotten worse, I guess...but without the voices from the earliest of OGs here I'll make my point clear for that...

When I was apart of this sentiment against the leniency of plugin approvals, along with the first or second gen plugin creators (e.g. Kekman, I, Monte, Rockfort, etc.), that was when the markets started to kick in. To give a date, that was 2019/20, when I only had 40 thousand downloads, at most. I have around 930k now, this gives a context on how old this issue is.

Sergio was on his maximum run of over 20 plugins a month. He was one of the first major creators to possess true annoyance to us, not just because his plugins were below average in terms of quality, but that he glanced the descriptions part of the page and made it incredibly casual. Of course when comparing the creators today, Sergio's quality is like of those from Michelangelo.

Always remember, Theotown is a game of kids. You can't deny it. Kids have unnatural requests when it comes to nice things. They want it to be as nice as possible and we cannot fulfill it. Remember in 2018 when a plugin with no night lights and rotational graphics can bring applause while today you need everything and they might not even budge at it?

Since I am not apart of this community for a long time now, who has been approving plugins? Back then it was Kulche (perhaps?), and he was a competent plugin creator. If it were him these plugins would've had not existed on the markets.

Hell I can laugh off with my 278 thousand diamond stockpiles seeing spammers trying to get a few thousand by making absolutely atrocious plugins.

Hey! Would you consider me a part of the first generation?

No? You were too late. First gens were already in the business in 2016. I'm not even in the first gen, but the second.

[Kamikazi]

As one of the OGs, I think I should give out my opinion about all of this.

First of all, I can say that in my point of view, the standards of what is a good plugin have been falling down. Before, it was all about the quality of the plugin, now the only thing that most people care is that it has oversaturated fancy lights, that is a cristal dong and you can spin it, which is really sad because before I could see the passion of the creator of making some good that everyone will enjoy and use them in their city. Now I don't see that passion in many of the new creators anymore, they now just want diamonds in the easiest way possible, like stealing frames from other games.

The cause of this? I wouldn't say that the plugin store is the main culprit, although it did help create this "get rich fast" mindset, but the sudden increase of the minimum diamond price. Like before, you could put the minimum price to 15 diamonds and still could watch an ad to get it for free and the devs would still get that revenue. But I can't get my head around why they increase the minimum price to 30. One of my solutions for this is to decrease the minimum diamond price to like 10 or 5 and a maximum of 100 diamonds, so people who don't care about them, can set it for cheap so everyone can get it and still the devs can get some money out of it with the ads.

About making the game paid in mobile:
I don't think that making the game paid like in pc for mobile will help solve the issue with the kids. I mean it would help a little, but not that much in reality. The fact that the game is in mobile, it will attract kids anyways, since nowadays, 10-year-olds now have a mobile phone and can simply ask their parents to buy their game, or get it trough other, less legal, means. A great example of this would be geometry dash, which is a paid mobile game, but yet it's filled with little kids and the community toxic af.

And finally, since I'm a person who is dedicated to the community, I'm going to talk about the community as a whole.
Over last few months I've seen more people get into dumb stupid fights which lead to absolutely nowhere and doesn't solve nothing. The only thing they do is to increase the toxicity of it, which is really bad for a community. There are some factors that are causing this, but I believe that the on-going historical events happening in Europe is causing this, since it's an event that radicalize people to one side or another. Since big part of the community is from Eastern Europe, this causes some serious clashes. As a person who looks for a better, friendly and non-toxic community, the thing that everyone from this community should do is to ignore other's beliefs and simply accept them as they are. The fact that a person has a completely different and radical belief to yours doesn't make them automatically bad, they can be friendly to talk with, helpful and very skilled at something. If only people did this, we would certainly avoid a lot of the fights. It's a simple city builder game anyways, so there is no real reason to fight really....(If this part gets a little bit political, please tell me and I'll change it)


Sorry for the long wall text that I've written, but I had to express my opinion of the community and the state of the game.

[PenangLion1016]

Monetizing the mobile game will be a suicidal decision. Its the equivalent of making yr game lose a big chunk of the player base. There's a difference between 5 million downloads, and the usual 20k downloads you'll see in paid games.

[The26]

This issue has gotten worse, I guess...but without the voices from the earliest of OGs here I'll make my point clear for that...

When I was apart of this sentiment against the leniency of plugin approvals, along with the first or second gen plugin creators (e.g. Kekman, I, Monte, Rockfort, etc.), that was when the markets started to kick in. To give a date, that was 2019/20, when I only had 40 thousand downloads, at most. I have around 930k now, this gives a context on how old this issue is.

Sergio was on his maximum run of over 20 plugins a month. He was one of the first major creators to possess true annoyance to us, not just because his plugins were below average in terms of quality, but that he glanced the descriptions part of the page and made it incredibly casual. Of course when comparing the creators today, Sergio's quality is like of those from Michelangelo.

Always remember, Theotown is a game of kids. You can't deny it. Kids have unnatural requests when it comes to nice things. They want it to be as nice as possible and we cannot fulfill it. Remember in 2018 when a plugin with no night lights and rotational graphics can bring applause while today you need everything and they might not even budge at it?

Since I am not apart of this community for a long time now, who has been approving plugins? Back then it was Kulche (perhaps?), and he was a competent plugin creator. If it were him these plugins would've had not existed on the markets.

Hell I can laugh off with my 278 thousand diamond stockpiles seeing spammers trying to get a few thousand by making absolutely atrocious plugins.

Hey! Would you consider me a part of the first generation?

No? You were too late. First gens were already in the business in 2016. I'm not even in the first gen, but the second.

Judging by this message I guess I'm a 3rd gen creator. At least I didn't miss the golden age of plugins, haha

[FVI]

“Paid games attract a much better audience.” Yeah that pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.

Also, the message I’m getting from Fvi going by this post and one of his previous ones is that he thinks that there should be no quality rules for the plugin store at all and anything that gets submitted should just automatically be approved? He can correct me if I’m wrong about what he’s saying, but that’s the message I’ve gotten.

@DelTaco24?That was not what I meant. In the previous message I wrote that they should not be too strict and go looking for the hair in the egg in each of my plugins, but it is already better. Of course maybe the first plugins are not so attractive, but you will see that your problem with "low quality plugins" will settle. PS why don't you try to make a plugin too?
viewtopic.php?f=49&p=190792#p190792 If someone is willing to help me (and to have one less low quality plugin in the store) If someone helps me I would be very grateful. Thank you.

You could try uploading your plugins in the forum showcase if they don’t get approved on the store.

Look, I try to create quality plugins but I'm just a beginner and I can't. Although it doesn't seem like it, I aspire to make plugins like rockfort even though I'm very far from those. Believe me, my goal is not to create a thousand ugly plugins but to create good ones but as I said it is VERY DIFFICULT.

[PenangLion1016]

@DelTaco24?That was not what I meant. In the previous message I wrote that they should not be too strict and go looking for the hair in the egg in each of my plugins, but it is already better. Of course maybe the first plugins are not so attractive, but you will see that your problem with "low quality plugins" will settle. PS why don't you try to make a plugin too?
viewtopic.php?f=49&p=190792#p190792 If someone is willing to help me (and to have one less low quality plugin in the store) If someone helps me I would be very grateful. Thank you.

You could try uploading your plugins in the forum showcase if they don’t get approved on the store.

Look, I try to create quality plugins but I'm just a beginner and I can't. Although it doesn't seem like it, I aspire to make plugins like rockfort even though I'm very far from those. Believe me, my goal is not to create a thousand ugly plugins but to create good ones but as I said it is VERY DIFFICULT.

You can be a beginner, of course everyone has been crappy, but you don't post them in the plugins store.
It's like a newbie artist. You don't sell your newly learnt work. You have to learn to actually paint properly before selling it.
That's why you post it in the forums first. There's critiques to help you improve, before actually posting it in the plugins store.

[DelTaco24]

The cause of this? I wouldn't say that the plugin store is the main culprit, although it did help create this "get rich fast" mindset, but the sudden increase of the minimum diamond price. Like before, you could put the minimum price to 15 diamonds and still could watch an ad to get it for free and the devs would still get that revenue. But I can't get my head around why they increase the minimum price to 30. One of my solutions for this is to decrease the minimum diamond price to like 10 or 5 and a maximum of 100 diamonds, so people who don't care about them, can set it for cheap so everyone can get it and still the devs can get some money out of it with the ads.

About making the game paid in mobile:
I don't think that making the game paid like in pc for mobile will help solve the issue with the kids. I mean it would help a little, but not that much in reality. The fact that the game is in mobile, it will attract kids anyways, since nowadays, 10-year-olds now have a mobile phone and can simply ask their parents to buy their game, or get it trough other, less legal, means. A great example of this would be geometry dash, which is a paid mobile game, but yet it's filled with little kids and the community toxic af.

While this doesn’t appear to be a popular opinion, I think the best thing to do about the plugin store is just simply get rid of monetization altogether like I said, as it just encourages scummy behavior (creating plugins for the sole purpose of earning gems). As for the game being paid on mobile, the app itself could continue to be free but I think the premium version should be an in-app purchase that upon buying would remove gems and ads from your game indefinitely. I think it should still at least be an option for those who still want it, as not having it on mobile altogether is a bit short sided on the devs’ part imo. But I guess you’re right on that it might not actually stop kids from downloading it since after all Minecraft is a paid game on all platforms and… oh boy… its community is just atrocious. Anyways, the real problem with the kids is less their presence alone and more how the moderators coddle them, refuse to tell them if they’re wrong and let them do basically whatever they want. I wouldn’t be bothered by them as much if their immature behavior wasn’t defended because “oh they’re just kids”, and also if kids weren’t actually the ‘target audience’ of the game. They should really stop letting these kids and their immaturity have that much control over the forums and plugin store. Because if they keep it up this way, nothing will ever improve.

[FVI]

You could try uploading your plugins in the forum showcase if they don’t get approved on the store.

Look, I try to create quality plugins but I'm just a beginner and I can't. Although it doesn't seem like it, I aspire to make plugins like rockfort even though I'm very far from those. Believe me, my goal is not to create a thousand ugly plugins but to create good ones but as I said it is VERY DIFFICULT.

You can be a beginner, of course everyone has been crappy, but you don't post them in the plugins store.
It's like a newbie artist. You don't sell your newly learnt work. You have to learn to actually paint properly before selling it.
That's why you post it in the forums first. There's critiques to help you improve, before actually posting it in the plugins store.

The only plugin I published was not a test or draft. I had been working on it for more than a month. Anyway you're right

[DelTaco24]

Look, I try to create quality plugins but I'm just a beginner and I can't. Although it doesn't seem like it, I aspire to make plugins like rockfort even though I'm very far from those. Believe me, my goal is not to create a thousand ugly plugins but to create good ones but as I said it is VERY DIFFICULT.

You can be a beginner, of course everyone has been crappy, but you don't post them in the plugins store.
It's like a newbie artist. You don't sell your newly learnt work. You have to learn to actually paint properly before selling it.
That's why you post it in the forums first. There's critiques to help you improve, before actually posting it in the plugins store.

The only plugin I published was not a proof or draft. I had been working on it for more than a month. Anyway you're right

My take on things is that the plugin store should be exclusive for higher quality plugins, while the forums could much more allowing of lower quality and edited plugins. It would be a good way for newbies to still share their plugins without it getting disapproved. It’s a shame uploading exclusively to the store has become so normalized that most people have completely forgotten that you can upload plugins on the forums. Had it stayed normal to upload on the forums, it would be better for the both the store and newbies. As anyone starting out could upload their plugins on the forums, while more experienced people could upload on the store (preferably alongside the forums). That way newbies wouldn’t feel discriminated against with disapprovals (and also doing it just for earning gems wouldn’t be a motive), while people who make higher quality plugins wouldn’t be bothered by a lack of quality throughout the store. Then once newbies start to improve and get more experienced, then their plugins could start being allowed on the store. If it was re-normalized to upload plugins on the forums and the plugin store was clearly marked as a place for higher quality only, there might be less tension over quality of plugins. An example of a ‘forum exclusive plugin’ could be that edited breakwater pack you did, that would be fine if you uploaded it exclusive to the forums since Mdk allows people to edit his work as long as they credit. But (in my opinion) uploading edited stuff like that to the actual store is a bit scummy. Also if you wanted to add manifest to it like you said, a better way of going about it would’ve been to just add the manifest file to the original unmodified plugin and release it exclusively on the forums. That way people could use it in it’s original quality/form for multiplayer without it needing to be on the store.

[Imran M]

This issue has gotten worse, I guess...but without the voices from the earliest of OGs here I'll make my point clear for that...

When I was apart of this sentiment against the leniency of plugin approvals, along with the first or second gen plugin creators (e.g. Kekman, I, Monte, Rockfort, etc.), that was when the markets started to kick in. To give a date, that was 2019/20, when I only had 40 thousand downloads, at most. I have around 930k now, this gives a context on how old this issue is.

Sergio was on his maximum run of over 20 plugins a month. He was one of the first major creators to possess true annoyance to us, not just because his plugins were below average in terms of quality, but that he glanced the descriptions part of the page and made it incredibly casual. Of course when comparing the creators today, Sergio's quality is like of those from Michelangelo.

Always remember, Theotown is a game of kids. You can't deny it. Kids have unnatural requests when it comes to nice things. They want it to be as nice as possible and we cannot fulfill it. Remember in 2018 when a plugin with no night lights and rotational graphics can bring applause while today you need everything and they might not even budge at it?

Since I am not apart of this community for a long time now, who has been approving plugins? Back then it was Kulche (perhaps?), and he was a competent plugin creator. If it were him these plugins would've had not existed on the markets.

Hell I can laugh off with my 278 thousand diamond stockpiles seeing spammers trying to get a few thousand by making absolutely atrocious plugins.

Hey! Would you consider me a part of the first generation?

No? You were too late. First gens were already in the business in 2016. I'm not even in the first gen, but the second.

Oh!! So like Mdk! But do i get to be a part of second gen..?